Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K
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TOPIC: Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K

Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #1

Platinum Boarder
Put up an offer on a rare pre-war 25H Streamlined Fire Engine with white tires and a red ladder. However its base is completely missing.

However I suspect its the even rarer 25K.

Here\'s why... if you look at the wheels they are much flatter and doesn\'t have the raised centre bulge like the other ones.
As there\'s so much missing I think the tires might be replacements, but the photo isn\'t that good.

Also I believe there\'s a large crack of metal fatigue running up from the rear wheel arch to the roof. I\'ve compared it to the photos on Vectis where one of these 25K also had a visible crack. Could it be possible that the prewar 25K is so rare because of the Mazak diecast? And a lot of these models have disintegrated?

Original red ladder has larger holes as compared to the repro ladders. Nice to see a straight one for a change.

Once this one arrives I\'d like to make a replicate base with the firemen. Is there anyone here that might have a 25K?
DT25K_nobase.JPG

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #2

Platinum Boarder
looks pre war richard no doubt, but did not all pre war come with fireman? if so look up ebay uk theres one on there for £50 + with men in it. but still not 100% meself whether they had them in it from prewar all the time but hey dam good score richard, new finds when she arrives.

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #3

Cam

Platinum Boarder
Good luck with the score Richard. I think, though, the 25k had a base in order to attach the firemen to the toy. I cannot be certain though. This toy is definitely pre war though.

Cam 

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #4

Platinum Boarder
I agree with Cam and Jay that it is pre war. You can tell by the hubs but the ladder gives it away. From what I have learned there were hubs left over from pre war that were put on vehicles until they were all gone, then they went to the post war hubs. I am under the impression that the ladders were not that way but were painted along with the toys so would be pre war for sure as they only painted pre war ladders, from my knowledge.  The no base think makes it a post war with the pre war casting and hubs, ladder being painted at time of toy painting. Unless you know for sure, through provenance or from the original owner that it had a base at one time, it is chancy at best. The base would have been between the axles and the tabs the axles went through. These hang from the side of the body. There should be little tabs in the corners or along the sides of the body to hold the base plate from falling into the body if it had a base at all. Take a look at the ones you have with base plates. If thru axle is holding it on then are there bumps for the base to rest on in the casting? That should tell you if it is a base plate model or not.

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #5

Platinum Boarder
Hi Jay and Cam, I think the base got lost for some reason, and as the plated firemen were attached to the base they probably disappeared with it.

I\'m mulling over a couple of ideas of making a repro chassis.

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #6

Platinum Boarder
Hi Jim, on the other site a member mentions that baseplates were introduced in 1937.

before that the 25H had no baseplate. So this model is probably legit as is.

I\'m musing that the 25H and K were produced at the same time from 1937 onwards, but that the 25K with firemen was the luxury model.

so the 25H continued until the upgrade to the 250.
I figure that 25K got discontinued quite early.

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #7

Platinum Boarder
1938 to 1940 for the 25K, 25h was 1936 to 1940 and then 1946 to 1953 then #250 from 1954 to 1962 when it was discontinued. 250 always had an unpainted ladder. Early 25h had painted ladders during pre war and early post war production , later post war ones did not, no mention of what year they stopped painting the ladder. 25k came with a painted ladder only.

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #8

Cam

Platinum Boarder
I believe a great many of the newer models had base plates with the slot provision for the firemen. Check those out and see. Then you will have an original toy. Keith Harvey may be able to provide you with a picture of a genuine 25k base plate. He has always been helpful to me with pictures and he has some very rare stuff. Unfortunately I don\'t know anyone who has an original.

Cam 

Last Edit: 11 years, 2 months ago by Cam.

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #9

Junior Boarder
All

The story on the 25K and 25H seems to be as follows:

25h Streamlined Fire Engine introduced in 1936, no base plate. The Richardsons state that from 1937 the fire engine had a base plate. Based on my own collection I do not believe that the pre-war 25h Fire Engines had a base plate.

This is my fleet of 25h, 25k and 250 Fire Engines:



The four from the left are early versions of the 25h, then there is a 25k with base plate and tinplate fireman. Followed by another 25h with a modified casting to take the base plate, but no base plate. Then there is a post war 25h with base plate and finally a 250.

In 1937 the 25k with six tinplate firemen was introduced as a separate model.



At this point the die was altered and lugs made inside the body for the base plate to rest on:



Note the lugs located behind the radiator and in the corners behind the wings on the left hand model. Note this has no base plate, but I had to repair the lugs holding the rear wheels as fatigue had caused these to shatter. This is the only 25h pre-war version I have with these lugs. All the others are the earlier casting.

However, I have not come across any 25h Fire Engines from before the war that have base plates other than the 25k with Firemen.

The 25k was only available for a short time in from 1937 to 1939

The following picture shows the three models with base plates, the 25k with Firemen, a post war 25k with base plate and the last 250 with altered base plate and embossed number. I have had the two post war models since new.



The 25k is hard to find, however the 25h is one of the most common Dinky Toys and is not particularly hard to find pre-war, some of mine have been bought for under £10. The 25h is one of the longest serving Dinky Toys having been introduced in 1936 and remaining in the catalogues until ,1962 with a break for the war.

Note that Dinky did not use pre-war hubs post war, as it all wartime production the pre0war hubs suffered from metal fatigue. The smooth style hubs were still made in 1946 until the ridged style superseded them in late 1946 or 1947. As they were a simple casting the hubs in the wartime years (and prewar) tended to get made at the end of the week when the Mazac/Zamak mix was at its most contaminated.



Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #10

Platinum Boarder
thanks for all the additional info and photos.

I\'ll have the pre-25H sometime next week and I\'ll see which version lugs it has.

Paid GBP 35 offer which was accepted. The Buy-it-now price was GBP 54. Still a bit steep but a lot lower than some other later versions which looked worse and going for more.

That\'s a really nice collection that I\'m envious of, but I\'m getting there.

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #11

Platinum Boarder
currently bidding on a post-25H with a battered red ladder. Appears complete except no bell.

Funny thing is the seller has it listed as the 250. However the baseplate is 25H.

And like Jim described, the red ladders were on the 25Hs

hopefully won\'t be outbid.

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #12

Platinum Boarder
just won another 25H postwar for less than a pound. Postage will be five times that much. red hubs and a crumpled red ladder, and black base plate. Looks in good nick so just need to straighten the ladder and order a bell.

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #13

Cam

Platinum Boarder
Good luck with the hunt Richard, keep us posted. Peter: thank for a very informative article about these toys.

Cam 

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #14

Junior Boarder
One thing I didn\'t mention is concerning the red or silver ladder. Pre-war 25 h and 25k have red ladders. Early post war ones also appear to have had red ladders. However, the ladder changed to silver before the renumbering to 250 so later 25h models have silver ladders as my example in my line up, which was bought for me in Ireland around 1957 or 1958. It must have been old stock as I already had a boxed 250, the renumbering happening in 1954.

Another point is that the repro bells are wider than the originals.

Re:Rare 25H streamlined engine could be 25K 11 years, 2 months ago #15

Platinum Boarder
Hi Peter,

I was wondering what the story was with the black ladders?

I\'m thinking trial runs or someone painting code3.
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